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Does God have a language?

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  • f0rTyLeGz
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    I mentioned Nicaraguan Sign Language before in this thread and it in the science news today:

    <span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #993300">Deaf Children Use Hands To Invent Own Way Of Communicating</span></span>

    ScienceDaily (Feb. 16, 2009) — Deaf children are able to develop a language-like gesture system by making up hand signs and using homemade systems to increase their communication as they grow, just as children with conventional spoken language, research at the University of Chicago shows.

    &quot;Other studies on this 'homesigning' have usually stopped at the point the children go to school, but I have been able to follow children in Nicaragua who are not near a special education school and accordingly continue developing their homesigns independently,&quot; said Marie Coppola, a Research Associate at the University of Chicago, who presented her findings Sunday, Feb. 15 at a news briefing, &quot;Languages without Ancestors,&quot; at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Coppola's research is the first to show that homesigning forms a foundation leading to more sophisticated, complicated communication.

    The capacity of homesigners to adapt and improve their communication based on language learning underlies the growth of a new sign language, Nicaraguan Sign Language, which a community of deaf children developed independently at a school for the deaf in the country's capital of Managua, Coppola said. Homesigning is common throughout cultures, but Nicaraguan Sign Language is one of the few established sign languages that a deaf community invented and scholars have studied.

    &quot;Since 1996, I have been working with deaf adolescents and adults in Nicaragua who have not learned Nicaraguan Sign Language, but who have invented their own sign languages that they use with their families, friends and neighbors. I have learned that these small languages have many characteristics of languages that are signed and spoken around the world,&quot; said Coppola, who has videotaped and studied the interactions with colleagues.

    Coppola observed Nicaraguans using gestures frequently when they spoke, and she noticed many, such as those used to describe eating, were consistent in their form. Deaf children are able to pick up on these gestures and their meanings, as well as invent others to communicate, she said.

    In order to serve deaf children, Nicaraguan leaders created a special education school in Managua, but staffed it with teachers who did not use sign language. They tried to get the children to speak and read people's lips so they could better adjust to the speaking world. The children developed their own sign language as a way of communicating with each other.

    &quot;When children and adolescents first came together at the school (the Melania Morales School for Special Education) in the late 1970s, they brought with them their homesign systems. These signs and ways of combining signs into sentences that children used at home served as the seeds for the new sign language that developed as they began interacting with each other regularly.

    &quot;We do not have videotape of the earliest years of Nicaraguan Sign Language from 1978 to 1986. Therefore, studying homesign systems can give us an idea of what Nicaraguan Sign Language looked like at its very beginning.&quot;

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0215151441.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • f0rTyLeGz
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What can we say about an intelligent designer (or a god who created us)? We can't say that the designer had to have a head and arms, and an opposing thumb, but we can say that a designer needed words... can't we? No being can design without words. Well, not unless all of this is the creation of a designed robot. But whoever designed the first designing robot had to have a language I would suggest.

    A language must be learned from others. Languages evolve, and an intelligent designer of our world would have to be the product of a language more sophisticated than ours is at this time.

    Is it logical to give an intelligent designer these attributes? Could an intelligent designer be intelligent without language? </div></div>
    LOL. God said and I quote from the bible &quot;let there be light&quot;... and there was light etc. so God had to have spoken a language for humans since creation to undertand what he said?? Isn't it?
    I wonder who/what God was talking to/with?
    Himself? </div></div>
    I suppose it is an obnoxious and spacey topic, and that is why it is so hard for me to get any people to talk about it in daily life or online.

    My interest isn't in the capabilities of gods really... I don't believe in them, and Im just using them to try and get folks thinking about thinking... but language and consciousness intrigue the heck out of me. Language is so close to us, having language and knowing the name for things, seems as normal as daylight to all of us.

    Ive come to think that language and is the most descriptive attribute that separates us from other animals. If you are awake, and don't have words running though your mind, you are either a vegetable or highly skilled at meditating.

    &quot;The exact definition of consciousness is still open to debate among academics.&quot;
    http://www.reference.com/search?q=Conscious

    It seems to me, that we have this amazing situation, all of us, of words running through our minds. Our language has evolved from all the words spoken before we lived, and these words exist only in the minds of humans. We inherit language through socialization... it's a part of growing up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morpheous
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What can we say about an intelligent designer (or a god who created us)? We can't say that the designer had to have a head and arms, and an opposing thumb, but we can say that a designer needed words... can't we? No being can design without words. Well, not unless all of this is the creation of a designed robot. But whoever designed the first designing robot had to have a language I would suggest.

    A language must be learned from others. Languages evolve, and an intelligent designer of our world would have to be the product of a language more sophisticated than ours is at this time.

    Is it logical to give an intelligent designer these attributes? Could an intelligent designer be intelligent without language? </div></div>
    LOL. God said and I quote from the bible &quot;let there be light&quot;... and there was light etc. so God had to have spoken a language for humans since creation to undertand what he said?? Isn't it?
    I wonder who/what God was talking to/with?
    Himself?

    Leave a comment:


  • f0rTyLeGz
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sukuna</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that we created God and not the other way around. Therefore he is so powerful to be able to speak every single language on earth so long as that language supports him. He speaks through signs, events, appearances like angels which alone suggest body language. Handwritting appear on walls and everything that a human can conceive is the work of God.

    In other words, if in a language the word &quot;God&quot; does not exist, there is no God.

    </div></div>
    I agree, language &quot;creates&quot; God, or gods, by naming him or them, or her. And great point that once they are named, then they &quot;exist&quot; until the language dies. That's positively liberating.

    Haven't we all been a little spooked by the constant &quot;voice&quot; in our minds?

    Plus, when we are talking there is usually someone who we are talking to. So if, like you suggest, that once we create God in our language, we use his power to answer many questions. I think that many of us, especially in the past, felt like, imagined, that that voice in their head, was &quot;speaking&quot; to God? God can &quot;hear&quot; that voice?

    Leave a comment:


  • f0rTyLeGz
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    I agree, but consider that if I take your argument to the logical conclusion, it says that if God has a language it had to be developed from somewhere, or by somebody, or some culture. </div></div>
    I agree. No being can just <span style="font-style: italic">know</span> a language a priori. When you say that...

    &quot;The problem is you're trying to bring God to the level of humans and saying if the development of language among humans is the product of culture/society, then it must be the same for God. I disagree with that premise primarily because the Christian God we are talking about is said to be omni-everything, and so is not bound by the same limitations, or required prequisites for something to happen, as humans are.&quot;

    ... it would seem to me that there must be some logical limitations on what &quot;omni-everything&quot; means.

    Intelligence requires language. Language is a product of society. Therefore, before there were people there were no languages... and no intelligence.

    It seems to me that intelligence can't stand by itself. Intelligence can't be static, and postulating a single being that knows everything, and can do everything, is creating an end to knowing. It's a verbal black hole where even though you can say it, when you think about it, it means nothing. Like &quot;eternal life.&quot; Nothing is eternal... especially life... and words.

    Doesn't being intelligent means having answers? Can you have answers without words going in, and words coming out? I don't think that a feral person could ever be defined as &quot;intelligent.&quot;

    There was a recent article on the possibilities of &quot;intelligent life&quot; in the universe in the BBC. The scientist, Duncan Forgan says, &quot;If alien life forms do exist, we may not necessarily be able to make contact with them, and we have no idea what form they would take.&quot; Link

    I think if there is &quot;intelligent life&quot; out there they will have languages. They will be noisy.

    I apologize for taking so long to reply.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    CEW are you familiar with the definition of omnipotence which excludes the logically impossible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My little point is that someBODY had to teach Him those words er symbols.</div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we assume your point is true, then the argument easily becomes circular - who taught the &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, and who taught the person who thought that &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, ad infinitum. If we presuppose the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, why would it be difficult to conceive that such a being would be all complete, lacking nothing, including the ability to communicate in language? One deficiency and his omni-whatever would be up in smoke! </div></div>
    But this isn't a first cause, Prime Mover argument... I hope. It's a conundrum about the nature of language, and how any being must grow up amongst people speaking in order to have words running in their mind. Words are the product of human society.

    </div></div>
    I agree, but consider that if I take your argument to the logical conclusion, it says that if God has a language it had to be developed from somewhere, or by somebody, or some culture. The problem is you're trying to bring God to the level of humans and saying if the development of language among humans is the product of culture/society, then it must be the same for God. I disagree with that premise primarily because the Christian God we are talking about is said to be omni-everything, and so is not bound by the same limitations, or required prequisites for something to happen, as humans are.

    Leave a comment:


  • f0rTyLeGz
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">very intriguing thread.

    it would seem that men have always considered breath- and thus speaking- to be something of power and of life. I recall reading a paper by a cave art researcher who argued that what was depicted in the cave paintings of the animals were not really a hunt per se, but some shamanic practice and the 'blood' coming from the animals was actually to be interpreted as breath, even farting.</div></div>
    Yes. I agree. The life's breath is on the inside and comes out in words. And we have words constantly going on in our minds... explaining everything, telling our story again and again... rationalizing, explaining, perfecting.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    also found this, about the Norse All-Father god Odin- curious to note that his power is also manifest by speaking or singing:</div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Song of Spells

    145.
    Those songs I know, which nor sons of men
    nor queen in a king's court knows;
    the first is Help which will bring thee help
    in all woes and in sorrow and strife.
    146.
    A second I know, which the son of men
    must sing, who would heal the sick.

    147.
    A third I know: if sore need should come
    of a spell to stay my foes;
    when I sing that song, which shall blunt their swords,
    nor their weapons nor staves can wound.

    148.
    A fourth I know: if men make fast
    in chains the joints of my limbs,
    when I sing that song which shall set me free,
    spring the fetters from hands and feet.

    149.
    A fifth I know: when I see, by foes shot,
    speeding a shaft through the host,
    flies it never so strongly I still can stay it,
    if I get but a glimpse of its flight.

    150.
    A sixth I know: when some thane would harm me
    in runes on a moist tree's root,
    on his head alone shall light the ills
    of the curse that he called upon mine.

    151.
    A seventh I know: if I see a hall
    high o'er the bench-mates blazing,
    flame it ne'er so fiercely I still can save it, --
    I know how to sing that song.

    152.
    An eighth I know: which all can sing
    for their weal if they learn it well;
    where hate shall wax 'mid the warrior sons,
    I can calm it soon with that song.

    153.
    A ninth I know: when need befalls me
    to save my vessel afloat,
    I hush the wind on the stormy wave,
    and soothe all the sea to rest.

    154.
    A tenth I know: when at night the witches
    ride and sport in the air,
    such spells I weave that they wander home
    out of skins and wits bewildered.

    155.
    An eleventh I know: if haply I lead
    my old comrades out to war,
    I sing 'neath the shields, and they fare forth mightily
    safe into battle,
    safe out of battle,
    and safe return from the strife.

    156.
    A twelfth I know: if I see in a tree
    a corpse from a halter hanging,
    such spells I write, and paint in runes,
    that the being descends and speaks.

    157.
    A thirteenth I know: if the new-born son
    of a warrior I sprinkle with water,
    that youth will not fail when he fares to war,
    never slain shall he bow before sword.

    158.
    A fourteenth I know: if I needs must number
    the Powers to the people of men,
    I know all the nature of gods and of elves
    which none can know untaught.

    159.
    A fifteenth I know, which Folk-stirrer sang,
    the dwarf, at the gates of Dawn;
    he sang strength to the gods, and skill to the elves,
    and wisdom to Odin who utters.

    160.
    A sixteenth I know: when all sweetness and love
    I would win from some artful wench,
    her heart I turn, and the whole mind change
    of that fair-armed lady I love.

    161.
    A seventeenth I know: so that e'en the shy maiden
    is slow to shun my love.

    162.
    These songs, Stray-Singer, which man's son knows not,
    long shalt thou lack in life,
    though thy weal if thou win'st them, thy boon if thou obey'st them
    thy good if haply thou gain'st them.

    163.
    An eighteenth I know: which I ne'er shall tell
    to maiden or wife of man
    save alone to my sister, or haply to her
    who folds me fast in her arms;
    most safe are secrets known to but one-
    the songs are sung to an end.

    164.
    Now the sayings of the High One are uttered in the hall
    for the weal of men, for the woe of Jötuns,
    Hail, thou who hast spoken! Hail, thou that knowest!
    Hail, ye that have hearkened! Use, thou who hast learned!
    </div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    also note the last stanza, slightly reminiscent isn't it. </div></div>
    Good read! The power of words spoken just so!

    Leave a comment:


  • f0rTyLeGz
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My little point is that someBODY had to teach Him those words er symbols.</div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we assume your point is true, then the argument easily becomes circular - who taught the &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, and who taught the person who thought that &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, ad infinitum. If we presuppose the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, why would it be difficult to conceive that such a being would be all complete, lacking nothing, including the ability to communicate in language? One deficiency and his omni-whatever would be up in smoke! </div></div>
    But this isn't a first cause, Prime Mover argument... I hope. It's a conundrum about the nature of language, and how any being must grow up amongst people speaking in order to have words running in their mind. Words are the product of human society.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not necessarily, a discussion about God can also take place regarding non existence of such an entity and use the attributes assigned to him mythologically to defeat the premise.</div></div>
    How does one say God doesn't exist and prove it absolutely? The test of the proof in such a case is virtually impossible given He's outside of anything that could be used to test His existence or lack of.</div></div>

    But you are assuming, why do we need to 'give' anything at all? How do you know he is outside of anything, you don't even know if he exists in the first place as nobody has any qualitative evidence to suggest that what they believe is really believable. We don't *have* to start from that premise. Like if someone came to you and said, there is a Santa Claus. I believe it. Here's the evidence.

    YOU are saying he is outside of anything that could be used to test his existence, but then any time some attribute is claimed on his behalf, you are actually introducing something testable- there can be a test of that existence, especially when such attributes are things like, omniscience, all loving, etc.

    Unless you are saying that nobody can claim anything about God at all. And if that is the case, there are millions and millions of people spinning their wheels in nonsense.
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for example, nobody here would argue Santa Claus exists. Yet we can discuss everything claimed about him, like how can he eat all these cookies if he really did exist. </div></div>
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That may be a way to pass time, but one would be hard pressed to characterize it as meaningful discussion. </div></div>

    That depends on your belief and how you like your sacred cow- bone in rib-eye medium rare or rib rack barbecued. For a young poor child who is a good kid, maybe it is a big deal to him to want to know why Santa doesn't come and give him presents.

    From the OT, it seems like it's Barbecue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not necessarily, a discussion about God can also take place regarding non existence of such an entity and use the attributes assigned to him mythologically to defeat the premise.</div></div>
    How does one say God doesn't exist and prove it absolutely? The test of the proof in such a case is virtually impossible given He's outside of anything that could be used to test His existence or lack of.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for example, nobody here would argue Santa Claus exists. Yet we can discuss everything claimed about him, like how can he eat all these cookies if he really did exist. </div></div>
    That may be a way to pass time, but one would be hard pressed to characterize it as meaningful discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    not necessarily, a discussion about God can also take place regarding non existence of such an entity and use the attributes assigned to him mythologically to defeat the premise.

    for example, nobody here would argue Santa Claus exists. Yet we can discuss everything claimed about him, like how can he eat all these cookies if he really did exist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why accept a presupposition that is baseless and offered out of incredulity. </div></div>
    Because any discussion about God's attributes (or lack thereof) starts with presupposing His existence, or the discussion is meaningless.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    why accept a presupposition that is baseless and offered out of incredulity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Does God have a language?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    In comic books, whenever the story involved some super super beyond reckoning powerful being, they always put symbols in the talk bubbles, and bold them.</div></div>
    My little point is that someBODY had to teach Him those words er symbols.</div></div>
    If we assume your point is true, then the argument easily becomes circular - who taught the &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, and who taught the person who thought that &quot;someBODY&quot; who taught God, ad infinitum. If we presuppose the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, why would it be difficult to conceive that such a being would be all complete, lacking nothing, including the ability to communicate in language? One deficiency and his omni-whatever would be up in smoke!

    Leave a comment:

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