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  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Upon further thinking and once again comparison, I find similarities. In essence, we believe that each human being has that capability of living to their fullest God given potential as a human being. In a way, it is finding out who you are in Christ and then growing and walking in that knowledge on a daily basis. Christians actually means 'little christs', and this is so because one can see that one is adhering to the words of Jesus and following his teachings. That is how a group of believers got the name 'christians' anyways and it has been so ever since.
    </div></div>

    there are without doubt, congruent themes and ideas. two monks, thomas merton, a catholic trappist monk, and a vietnamese zen monk, risked expulsion and excommunication from their respective orders to explore their respective systems and their work was exemplary. the zen monk was Thich Nhat Han.

    where a ch'an buddhist would differ from a christian would basically be in regards to attempts to establish yashua's divinity- buddhism wouldn't care- and in general the sacrificial salvation plan for humanity's sins. Ch'an is based on too logical a system to deal with the inconsistencies presented, but maybe other sects would have less problems.

    I think also that to many buddhists, at least the ones who I have dealt with, once they have read the gospels they mostly grow puzzled when looking at the texts and then looking at the people, because to them the teachings are quite clear and they often are left scratching their heads.

    I am reminded of a ch'an story about a novice monk named Yashida, the rumor or story has it that he was a seminary student.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A student once visited the Zen master Gasan in Tenryuji, one of the five great Zen monasteries in Kyoto, and asked him: "Have you ever read the Christian Bible?" Gasan replied: "No--read it for me."

    The student opened the Bible and began to read from the Gospel of Matthew: "And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of them. . . . So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own" (6:28ff.).

    Gasan said: "I would say that the man who spoke these words is enlightened."

    The student continued his reading: "Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you" (7:7).

    Gasan then said: "Wonderful! The man who spoke such words is not far from Buddhahood!"</div></div>

    Concordantly there is a stream of contemplative Christianity of which many christians are woefully unaware. Yashua himself was clearly a mendicant renunciate, and this would resonate deeply with any student of Buddhist lineage. I would say Yashua and his disciples were unequivocably congruent to Gotama. Applying the ch'an dialectic reveals a lot of the transcendental aspects of Yashua's teachings.

    Like Buddhism, indeed, like all spiritual systems, what is at work is a struggle to reconcile with the universe and become one again. You see, if you accept the idea that there is a God and he is omniscient and omnipotent, then there is no logical way to accept original sin, heaven or hell. From this simple rejection, it becomes readily apparent then to look at the gospels and yashua's teachings in quite a different light. This also makes sense because Yashua himself never speaks about the redemption of original sin or restoring Adam from the fall. I mean, this is glaringly obvious and i think any reasonable person would have to wonder why, if this is the purpose of his ministry and mission, why is he so silent about it when he on several occasions is presented with the perfect opportunity to lay it out, he instead says love god, love thy neighbor, sell all that thou hast, and give to the poor. Then you will have Heaven. Also he mentions and uses people who have already gotten into heaven so there is no need for his sacrifice to get people there...and he repeatedly tells people they are saved before his own sacrifice, free from sin, and to sin no more. I don't think it is fair to label him inconsistent of his own accord.

    Where Buddhism and Christianity shine together would be in Yashua's methodically gorgeous transcendental instructions- the kingdom is at hand, within, the mustard seed, compassion, most of the parables, unity with the Father/Universe, etc.

    So to Buddhism, divinity salvation would be weird, and to Christians reincarnation, the law of karma, no need for a God/saviour to convey unity, that would probably be a little weird.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Statues of religious nature generally assumes worship, so this is good to note also.
    </div></div>

    yeah, in a sense it reminded me a lot of catholics because they love their statuary and often lay practitioners probably get a little confused about using the imagery as a focal point of their prayer.

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The first historical Buddha, the founder, was Gotama Siddhartha Sakyamuni. A Nepalese prince. He established the Four Noble Truths, the Triple Gems, the 8fold path... He is referred to as "the Buddha" but there were many different Buddhas and are many different Buddhas.

    You see the whole point is that everyone is a Buddha. Each of us has the Buddha nature, the Buddha mind, the potential to achieve enlightenment and salvation. All of creation actually has this latent ability through the premise of interbeing so that all of creation is sacred. Buddhists carve statues of the Buddha not to worship the Buddha- unless it is corrupted- but to recognize that even this rock or wood will one day achieve. when it rains on a buddhist, or anyone, it is like a baptism in the Jordan.

    The Dharma which the Buddha recognized and taught is universal and self evident when one possesses the wisdom to discern it's nature. So naturally he was not the only one to recognize the path. There are countless Buddhas. </div></div>

    Ahhhh, I got it..thanks.

    Upon further thinking and once again comparison, I find similarities. In essence, we believe that each human being has that capability of living to their fullest God given potential as a human being. In a way, it is finding out who you are in Christ and then growing and walking in that knowledge on a daily basis. Christians actually means 'little christs', and this is so because one can see that one is adhering to the words of Jesus and following his teachings. That is how a group of believers got the name 'christians' anyways and it has been so ever since.



    ETA: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buddhists carve statues of the Buddha not to worship the Buddha- unless it is corrupted- but to recognize that even this rock or wood will one day achieve.</div></div>

    Statues of religious nature generally assumes worship, so this is good to note also.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    sangha = church

    the body of people engaged in the pursuit. like christianity it placed an emphasis on reclusion. but this is a different day. in some buddhist traditions the monastic sangha still maintains it's reclusive nature, some encompass renunciate and engaged...but many practice engaged.


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Are you referring to Buddha as gotama? Interchangeable words?



    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There were Buddhas before him and Buddhas after, Buddhas who never heard of him.</div></div>

    What do you mean by this? Can you elaborate a little pls...

    </div></div>

    The first historical Buddha, the founder, was Gotama Siddhartha Sakyamuni. A Nepalese prince. He established the Four Noble Truths, the Triple Gems, the 8fold path... He is referred to as "the Buddha" but there were many different Buddhas and are many different Buddhas.

    You see the whole point is that everyone is a Buddha. Each of us has the Buddha nature, the Buddha mind, the potential to achieve enlightenment and salvation. All of creation actually has this latent ability through the premise of interbeing so that all of creation is sacred. Buddhists carve statues of the Buddha not to worship the Buddha- unless it is corrupted- but to recognize that even this rock or wood will one day achieve. when it rains on a buddhist, or anyone, it is like a baptism in the Jordan.

    The Dharma which the Buddha recognized and taught is universal and self evident when one possesses the wisdom to discern it's nature. So naturally he was not the only one to recognize the path. There are countless Buddhas.

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">in my opinion and if you understand gotama, he never wanted there to be an 'ism'. every sentient being has within itself the potential to become a Buddha- which means The One Thus Come, or the Awakened One. As an example, the Buddha felt that the best way to achieve enlightenment was to become a part of the monastic community, the Sangha. But when he died, the community quickly devolved and needed governance. So all the teachings the Buddha gave to individuals were codified into a rule set. To show how corruption encroached, the rule set developed into 250 precepts for men, and 500 for women.</div></div>


    'Religified'....... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img], you can coin that one..

    So there are certain similar aspects in comparison with christianity, in terms of religious structure. Sangha is more or less, same minds with similar spiritual goals coming together in a communal way. That would be 'church' as we know it in christendom. The purposes are similar, but of course the details different. Wouldn't you say? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

    Corruption I also understand.
    The original intention and purpose was certainly not an 'ism' or a religious structure as we know it today, but like you said, there are those that will corrupt the pureness of the teachings, whether Buddhism or Christianty. That is readily understood and can attest within christendom also.

    Thanks for your input..

    Are you referring to Buddha as gotama? Interchangeable words?



    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There were Buddhas before him and Buddhas after, Buddhas who never heard of him.</div></div>

    What do you mean by this? Can you elaborate a little pls...

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tek_weh_yuhself</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


    preach mi friend preach [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img] </div></div>

    Thinking of venturing into the Buddhism pathway? What's attracting you to this religion/philosophy? Well if you are, that is... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

    Yes, there were a couple of informative threads with Monk adding his personal touch and insights into Buddhism , I believe. Nylah started one. I have to find those threads for you. One is archived, the other I am not sure.

    Link #1

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    When it comes to religion, though I have a "working knowledge" of most of the major ones, on certain matters I defer to those who know than I do. Plus, I study them primarily to understand what they're about and for comparative apologetic purposes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mutty
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    I sometimes post about Islam and all I get are chirping crickets.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tek_weh_yuhself</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


    preach mi friend preach [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img] </div></div>
    So instead of waiting for someone to post something you're interested in, why don't you post something new/different? Sounds reasonable and fairly simple, no?

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    the best way to become buddhist, or better to say, become a buddha, is to not even realize it.

    a great master once likened it to when you were a child. you were never tired, you ran to and fro, boundless, everything was unconditioned and no thought was given for the morrow. another story to make the point, two great masters and their disciples met. One disciple exclaimed to the other, my master has achieved the highest level of practice. He can do fantastic and wonderful things, I have seen him walk across a river and not get wet! So...what can your master do?" And so the next disciple says, "My Master eats when it is time to eat, and sleeps when it is time to sleep."

    in my opinion and if you understand gotama, he never wanted there to be an 'ism'. every sentient being has within itself the potential to become a Buddha- which means The One Thus Come, or the Awakened One. As an example, the Buddha felt that the best way to achieve enlightenment was to become a part of the monastic community, the Sangha. But when he died, the community quickly devolved and needed governance. So all the teachings the Buddha gave to individuals were codified into a rule set. To show how corruption encroached, the rule set developed into 250 precepts for men, and 500 for women.

    compounding this is that none of the teachings which he dispensed were written down contemperary to his life, they were compiled afterwards.

    So you can see how something can be religified. I know that is not a word but it sounds pretty good. There are sects however, which have cut away the corruptions by developing the mind of the practitioner. Then it is only more and more obvious.

    Many people refer to the 3 jewels, but during my ceremony- which was a little different than just becoming an 'official' buddhist- they are actually referred to as the most precious thing, so precious as to be indescribable, to which no value can be assigned. Jewel is I guess a convenient way to refer to that.

    I don't think it is correct to say he created the path, more like he recognized the path and found his way to achieve it- because the Dharma, for it to be true and effective, it must be self evident, inherent, and intuitive. There were Buddhas before him and Buddhas after, Buddhas who never heard of him.



    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes its hard to believe in this forum, but there are other religions other than christianity. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I found this article and thought it was plain and simple information on Buddhism. Maybe Monk can also add his thoughts..as he had done in a previous thread..

    Deciding to Become A Buddhist
    How to Join the Buddhist Religion <span style="color: #FF0000">Source</span>


    When one believes one is truly ready to follow the Buddhist path as a their religion, one's next step is to take the Refuge Vows
    Buddhism can be approached either as a philosophy or a religion. If it is approached as a philosophy, it can be used to live one's life in a more logical, compassionate manner. Buddhism can also be used as a religion.
    Should a person, after proper reflection, wish to pursue Buddhism as a religion, one has to take the Refuge Vow. The Buddhist religion by and large frowns upon proselytizing, so the decision to formally join the Buddhist religion is created to be a very private one. Although taking the vow is simple, it should only be done once one is certain in their hearts that the Buddhist religion is right for them.

    Unlike other religions which require a baptism or some elaborate ceremony, all that is required to become a Buddhist is to promise that from now on, one will take refuge in what is called the Three Jewels; the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

    The vow can be taken more than once, and can be first taken as a part of a Refuge Ceremony or in the course of participating in another ceremony, such as an empowerment. The vow can be made aloud or silently so only the person taking the vow knows that they have taken it.
    The words of the vow say that from now until one reaches Enlightenment, one will take refuge in the Buddha Jewel, the Dharma Jewel and the Sangha Jewel.

    Refuge In Buddha
    Buddha is of course, Buddha Shakyamuni. He created the path which all Buddhists follow to achieve the end of suffering in their lives and reach Enlightenment. In taking this vow, one is taking refuge also in the qualities of the Buddha, which one already has inside of them. As one practices Buddhism, one will learn how to discover these wonderful qualities and begin more and more to rely on them.
    One should understand that the Buddha was once a man who lived a full secular life indulging in all material pleasures, until he recognized that life in the material world brought no peace. Instead it brought much suffering to himself and everyone he knew. So, he set out to discover a way to truly live a peaceful and happy life. In doing so, he also developed great compassion; a wish to help all others find the same peace. By taking refuge, one will follow this same path from suffering to peace, to Enlightenment, using the life of Buddha as ones guide.

    Reference In Dharma
    Dharma is the teaching of Buddha. Because of Buddha Shakyamuni’s long life, he was able to give 84,000 different teachings. These teachings are separated into the Sutra teachings and the Tantra teachings. Reading and following these teachings help one to reach Enlightenment.
    Buddha told his followers not to believe what he said strictly because he said it. In other words, he said do not accept what he taught on blind faith. Buddha advised his students to apply what he said to their own lives and see if it resonated for them. After doing so, one begins to believe what the Buddha said and to have faith in his teachings; seeing them as practical, logical and useful ways of dealing with the trials and tribulations of life. Once one has found faith in the Buddha’s words, it is easy to take refuge in the Dharma jewel.
    Refuge in Sangha

    The Sangha Jewel is the body of ordained members of the group where one practices. In most cases, the Sangha, or ordained monks and nuns, are constantly working to improve their knowledge and understanding of the dharma and therefore more often have a deeper knowledge than a lay practitioner. Plus, based on the vows they take, they should also be working on improving their compassion towards others and therefore these Sangha can and should be called on not just for their knowledge, but to lend a shoulder in time of need as well as a great role model.

    By taking the Refuge Vows and enlisting the aid of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha one will begin on the path to attaining the ultimate goal of a Buddhist practitioner, Enlightenment.
    </div></div>

    Leave a comment:


  • Blackstar*
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tek_weh_yuhself</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


    preach mi friend preach
    [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img] </div></div>
    Same here. Great article, SR.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gen
    replied
    Re: More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/yahoo.gif[/img] your timing is perfect. was there another thread on this topic ? I rarely come down here because I see the same thing over and over.


    preach mi friend preach [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70371-jump.gif[/img]

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    More on Buddhism..Becoming a Buddhist

    Sometimes its hard to believe in this forum, but there are other religions other than christianity. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] I found this article and thought it was plain and simple information on Buddhism. Maybe Monk can also add his thoughts..as he had done in a previous thread..

    Deciding to Become A Buddhist
    How to Join the Buddhist Religion <span style="color: #FF0000">Source</span>


    When one believes one is truly ready to follow the Buddhist path as a their religion, one's next step is to take the Refuge Vows
    Buddhism can be approached either as a philosophy or a religion. If it is approached as a philosophy, it can be used to live one's life in a more logical, compassionate manner. Buddhism can also be used as a religion.
    Should a person, after proper reflection, wish to pursue Buddhism as a religion, one has to take the Refuge Vow. The Buddhist religion by and large frowns upon proselytizing, so the decision to formally join the Buddhist religion is created to be a very private one. Although taking the vow is simple, it should only be done once one is certain in their hearts that the Buddhist religion is right for them.

    Unlike other religions which require a baptism or some elaborate ceremony, all that is required to become a Buddhist is to promise that from now on, one will take refuge in what is called the Three Jewels; the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.

    The vow can be taken more than once, and can be first taken as a part of a Refuge Ceremony or in the course of participating in another ceremony, such as an empowerment. The vow can be made aloud or silently so only the person taking the vow knows that they have taken it.
    The words of the vow say that from now until one reaches Enlightenment, one will take refuge in the Buddha Jewel, the Dharma Jewel and the Sangha Jewel.

    Refuge In Buddha
    Buddha is of course, Buddha Shakyamuni. He created the path which all Buddhists follow to achieve the end of suffering in their lives and reach Enlightenment. In taking this vow, one is taking refuge also in the qualities of the Buddha, which one already has inside of them. As one practices Buddhism, one will learn how to discover these wonderful qualities and begin more and more to rely on them.
    One should understand that the Buddha was once a man who lived a full secular life indulging in all material pleasures, until he recognized that life in the material world brought no peace. Instead it brought much suffering to himself and everyone he knew. So, he set out to discover a way to truly live a peaceful and happy life. In doing so, he also developed great compassion; a wish to help all others find the same peace. By taking refuge, one will follow this same path from suffering to peace, to Enlightenment, using the life of Buddha as ones guide.

    Reference In Dharma
    Dharma is the teaching of Buddha. Because of Buddha Shakyamuni’s long life, he was able to give 84,000 different teachings. These teachings are separated into the Sutra teachings and the Tantra teachings. Reading and following these teachings help one to reach Enlightenment.
    Buddha told his followers not to believe what he said strictly because he said it. In other words, he said do not accept what he taught on blind faith. Buddha advised his students to apply what he said to their own lives and see if it resonated for them. After doing so, one begins to believe what the Buddha said and to have faith in his teachings; seeing them as practical, logical and useful ways of dealing with the trials and tribulations of life. Once one has found faith in the Buddha’s words, it is easy to take refuge in the Dharma jewel.
    Refuge in Sangha

    The Sangha Jewel is the body of ordained members of the group where one practices. In most cases, the Sangha, or ordained monks and nuns, are constantly working to improve their knowledge and understanding of the dharma and therefore more often have a deeper knowledge than a lay practitioner. Plus, based on the vows they take, they should also be working on improving their compassion towards others and therefore these Sangha can and should be called on not just for their knowledge, but to lend a shoulder in time of need as well as a great role model.

    By taking the Refuge Vows and enlisting the aid of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha one will begin on the path to attaining the ultimate goal of a Buddhist practitioner, Enlightenment.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

    well you are right, because one half of his audience did NOT realize it so for them it was not self evident...probably a better way to put it is that eventually...with discipline and training and awareness, what is hidden can be revealed, and at that point awareness becomes self evident. Some people do get this naturally, but others must work very hard to understand it. Many fail. This realization and actualization can be the most difficult part, because for a lot of people they will just succumb to the easy part, remain comfortable and just live out their time as they can- just go to Church, pray, ask God for things, make a donation, and then Jesus will save you in the end. But that is not really possible and to think that you have to sort of ignore a lot of parts of the story, yashua can not die for your sins per se, he can die only to show the way to sacrifice your own self to the self.

    but occlusion of what buddhist call your original "mind" occurs naturally- look at everything society throws on you from when you were a child to how you grow up.

    yesterday I was stuck in traffic. it was rush hour traffic. it made me think back to when I would ride the train into the city and home, EVERY day I spent over 3-4 hrs of my time in this process. I won't say I lost that time, but still...and looking around me there were thousands of people doing this and to what end.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nylah
    replied
    Re: Monk - It's all your Fault


    I really love it when you use the word "obvious" [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whatever.gif[/img]

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You will note that many of them are quite surprised that they helped him at all. According to Yashua's brilliant construction, the passage goes out of it's way to say they did not even know they were helping Yashua, or doing this in his name even- they were doing it of their own accord and of their own understanding of what is right and just to do. Yashua says they were doing it for him, it was symbolic. Likewise, the cursed proclaim they never would have denied or turned their back on Yashua knowingly.

    I mean, can it be any clearer? It's freakin genius!!!

    This, I think, torpedoes quite adequately this notion of faith alone, even torpedoes the idea one need be christian to gain heaven, and cements the teachings in the application and pursuit of right actions, and that acts of righteousness are self evident and the knowledge of their pursuit intuitive- and are worthy of their own sake. Good is good, not because of a known reward to come, but simply for it's own inherent value and sake.

    Also, in the synoptics such as Mark, we see recollections wherein a man- or a lawyer i think in Luke- approach Yashua and point blank ask him what he needs to do. In return, Yashua lays it out, point blank. Simply put.

    Do not kill. Do not lie. Do not steal. Honor your parents.

    Love God. Love thy neighbor, as yourself.

    When further pressed, Yashua again point blank tells the man, only one thing dost thou lackest- sell all that thou hast, give to the poor, TAKE UP THE CROSS and follow me.

    I think here we see an obvious transcendental truth also at work. The work of salvation is not comfortable. To arrive at transcendental and intuitive understanding of truth and to be able to apply it practically is not easy- when looked at from a certain perspective.

    </div></div>

    Couple of things:

    I agree that the work of "salvation" is not comfortable. To have it truly manifest in your spirit and show outwardly in your life means that some fundamental understanding of what defines salvation has penetrated your soul. Fair enough.


    But you note the brillance (and also why the message is open to all and not just Christians) of Yashua's teaching is that the truth He is teaching is self-evident. That good is good, etc. And in addtion, His followers didnt even "know" that they were following His instructions.

    I guess I dont quite agree that it is summarily self-evident - meaning that I would agree and follow the teachings without the intervention of God or the Holy Spirit within me. They may seem self-evident because of His indwelling, and not just because.

    Leave a comment:


  • rudemonk
    replied
    Re: Monk - It's all your Fault

    I wanted to reread it too.

    http://www.jamaicans.com/forums/ubbt...633518&fpart=1

    Leave a comment:

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