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Can a person fall from grace?

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  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HemGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if grace is a gift, how do you know when you have received it?

    if you've asked a thousand times for grace, how do you know you have not received it? if you have not asked for grace, but God has given it to you, how do you know? </div></div> If grace is agift,what is the motivation to try to do good then? since grace is given at the pkeasure,meanung it is niot waht you do ,but whether or not he feel to grant you grace. Of course to me it makes no sence,but I am slow as you all know. </div></div>
    In broad terms, grace speaks of God's favor; Him extending to us things we do not deserve, or could not earn, solely on the basis of who He is and the completed work of Christ on the cross.

    In Christian theology, God demonstrated His love for humanity by giving His Son as the once-and-for-all sacrifice that could make possible reconciliation between creator and man. That's why we read the Apostle Paul's reminder "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). That act alone epitomizes grace, God's favor, His giving to us all that we would have not otherwise have had solely on the basis of what His Son did on our behalf. So effectively, grace opened the door to our reconciling with God. It is up to each person to decide if they will walk through that door.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrJames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    If a Sinner of believers tries to justify himself or herself by the deeds of the Old Testament laws he or she is fallen from grace.

    Gal 5:4 (NKJV)You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace</div></div>
    You crack me up, but that's a different story. In case you hadn't noticed, the discussion has expanded and we were talking about the issue of suicide and grace. Having said that, the above is the only part of your comments on which we agree. And why would you want to look up any Biblical "root word" in Latin and not in Hebrew & Greek, the original languages?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Precise keping of the old Testament law, will not make a person get the favour of God. You could keep Sabbaths until you fall over dead. If you refuses to come to God for saving grace, you will end up in the same place like Satan and the rest of the guys. </div></div>
    Why "saving grace"? Are there different kinds of grace? And BTW, no one can keep the Torah "precisely" because if we could, the Cross, and by extension, grace or God's favor, wouldn't have been necessary.

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  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    CEW!

    How to do research.


    The Topic Is: “CAN A SINNER FALL FROM GRACE?”

    Gal 5:4 (NKJV)You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

    2 Kings 24:3-4 (KJV) Surely at the commandment of the Lord came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did; [4] And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the Lord would not pardon.

    The author uses. One verse taken from the Old Testament, and one verse taken from the new Testament. To base his vew on. You need to look up the Latin root of the word grace. You will see that the word “Grace” has “pardon in it” Just like what mention in 2 Kings 24: 3-4.


    Now what is it that Manasseh had done that God would not pardon him for? If you go back to the text 2 Kings 24. You will see that he shed innocent blood. Other books of the bible will tell you how he shed these innocent blood. Then their or other old Testament writers that is not mentions in the Bible that can give you greater details on how this king kill people. Pregnant women were tore up. Isaiah was sawed in two by this king. You can get his killings in details if you have stomach for it. Then you need to ask yourself. Did we commit these sins today and how?

    You going to find out that we today commit those same sins, but in another way. Then you will get to see why we today having no power, cannot converts sinners, and getting no revelation.
    The Holy Spirit that suppose to lead us into all truth is not working with us.

    Just got up and commenting on the topics without done some root research, will only drive you further and further away from the truth.


    If a Sinner of believers tries to justify himself or herself by the deeds of the Old Testament laws he or she is fallen from grace.

    Gal 5:4 (NKJV)You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

    Precise keping of the old Testament law, will not make a person get the favour of God. You could keep Sabbaths until you fall over dead. If you refuses to come to God for saving grace, you will end up in the same place like Satan and the rest of the guys.

    Leave a comment:


  • mountaingal
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    yes, i'm a little confused by the notion of grace, too, Doc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr.Dudd
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HemGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if grace is a gift, how do you know when you have received it?

    if you've asked a thousand times for grace, how do you know you have not received it? if you have not asked for grace, but God has given it to you, how do you know? </div></div> If grace is agift,what is the motivation to try to do good then? since grace is given at the pkeasure,meanung it is niot waht you do ,but whether or not he feel to grant you grace. Of course to me it makes no sence,but I am slow as you all know.

    Leave a comment:


  • mountaingal
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    if grace is a gift, how do you know when you have received it?

    if you've asked a thousand times for grace, how do you know you have not received it? if you have not asked for grace, but God has given it to you, how do you know?

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrJames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CEW!


    Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)
    Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. [32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



    “I really don't believe anyone can answer that question with absolute certainty either way, however one could argue that grace is a gift extended by God and not something we can earn or forfeit.”

    GRACE

    b. Mercy; clemency. 5. A favor rendered by one who need not do so; indulgence.
    6. A temporary immunity or exemption; a reprieve.

    If grace is a gift. Then it cannot be earn. However, it can be rejected, spurned, lost, or stolen.
    </div></div>
    I'm not sure what yours is in response to, but the text quoted has no bearing on the subject being discussed. Jesus made it clear that blaspheming (speaking against, insulting, making disparaging remarks) the Holy Ghost was the unpardonable sin, a subject that was discussed in a previous thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=CEW]The problem is I do not believe you can apply "simple logic" to the situation under discussion. One cannot speak of grace without speaking of mercy, and who is to say where God applies the latter? In Matt 9:1 we read "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." There is no record the man asked for forgiveness for anything, so he was the recipient of both grace and mercy. Likewise, there is no record that the woman caught in the act of adultery asked for forgiveness, yet Jesus made it clear to her that He did not condemn her for the act. Another instance of grace and mercy. The thief on the cross was also ushered into paradise without asking for forgiveness (Luke 23:39-43).

    Grace is a gift; there's nothing we can do (even if we ask a thousand times) to earn it. </div></div>

    1) Do you believe that Jesus could read what he was thinking,and forgiveness does not have to be verbally spoken,but done in the mind?

    Not impossible, but that would be reading something into the text that is not there.

    2) Didn't Jesus say to him that "his sin was forgiven'? Sound like Jesus heard somthing why he replied thus to me. But that is me an my looking for logic in things.

    Yes, He did say those words as recorded in Matthew 9.

    3) DId the theif on the cross ask for forgiveness,after or before death?

    He never did. He just asked that Jesus remember Him in Paradise, to which Jesus replied to the effect that today, we will both be in Paradise (Luke 23:43).

    4) Does the scripture support one ask for forgiveness after death??

    No, because that's not possible (Luke 16:19-31)

    5) Does the scripture support God granting mercy to a person who never ask forgiveness?

    There have been demonstrations of it - the woman caught in the act of adultery is a case in point (John 8:3-11). Just as important, in the OT we read of God saying "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy" (Ex. 33:19). IMO, this is a part of the mystery of His Sovereignty.

    5) Is it possible to asl forgivemness after one is dead??

    No, see answer to #4.

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Newtral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Can a person fall from grace"..?

    Depends on what position they were in,and how big grace was,...now take the missionary position,..imagine if the person was precariously balanced on a well fed 20 stone grace,....it could be curtains if he wasnt holding on tight when grace....lets say ..."arrives" where she was going. </div></div>

    Newtral, yu need Grace and Mercy.. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70388-shameonyou.gif[/img]
    callin Dr J. on Newtral.. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]

    Leave a comment:


  • neutral
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    "Can a person fall from grace"..?

    Depends on what position they were in,and how big grace was,...now take the missionary position,..imagine if the person was precariously balanced on a well fed 20 stone grace,....it could be curtains if he wasnt holding on tight when grace....lets say ..."arrives" where she was going.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mutty
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Empress_Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    but predestination opens up another can of worms for me which I have hardly seen a valid Christian interpretation for. </div></div>

    Boy, does it ever!

    Leave a comment:


  • Nylah
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrJames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Empress!

    Your questions seem to be legitimate and without sarcasm. I think I should respond to you. God know all the people who truly love him, and want to serve him. He therefore, went ahead and pre-destine those people. So, regardless of how they end, has little effect on their final salivation.

    God is not in any contest with his people. He is not waiting for you to sin, so clabber you.

    Exodus 33:19 (KJV) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.



    </div></div>

    my question was rhetorical because I disagree with what Dr Dudd wrote.

    but predestination opens up another can of worms for me which I have hardly seen a valid Christian interpretation for.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    A VENDETTA FOR THE PROPHETS.


    As you, serve God. You must be constantly examine your spirit, to see if you are in the faith.

    2 Cor. 13:5 (KJV) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


    The people would not receive Jesus’ message because of envy.

    Matthew 27:17-18 (KJV) Therefore, when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? [18] For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

    THEY ENVIED MOSES.

    Psalm 106:16 (KJV)
    They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the Lord.

    1 Cor. 3:3 (KJV)
    For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    They envied Joseph and would not receive his message.

    Genesis 37:11 (KJV)
    And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

    Envy was added to hatred. Envy is selfish grudging of what another enjoys (Job 5:2; Proverbs 14:30; Romans 1:29; 1 Tim. 6:4; Titus 3:3). It is associated with bitterness, strife, murder and other sins (Eccles. 9:6; Romans 1:29; Romans 13:13; 1 Cor. 3:3; 2 Cor. 12:20; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Tim. 6:4; Titus 3:3; James 3:14-16; James 4:5). Joseph's dreams incited envy in his brothers but deep thought in Jacob who took them as divine indication of events that would affect his family. They also helped prepare Joseph for his coming sufferings in Egypt (Genesis 42:8-9; Genesis 45:4-8; Genesis 50:15-21).

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    Empress!

    Your questions seem to be legitimate and without sarcasm. I think I should respond to you. God know all the people who truly love him, and want to serve him. He therefore, went ahead and pre-destine those people. So, regardless of how they end, has little effect on their final salivation.

    God is not in any contest with his people. He is not waiting for you to sin, so clabber you.

    Exodus 33:19 (KJV) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.



    Leave a comment:


  • Nylah
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style='font-size: 14pt'> The Bible teaches that from the moment a person truly believes in Christ, he or she is eternally secure (John 3:16 According to the Bible, Christians can know beyond any doubt that they possess eternal life no matter what happens. “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,</span>

    So You want to tell me that this author really believe that a

    christian can do anything and then end up the same place as

    those who try and us successful at keeping Gods laws, as long as he really believe?

    So you mean that this author really belueve that if a christian really beileve in God,he can do such an act as commit suicide?

    You mean that he does not rely on God ,but take his life instead,and still believe in God at that time?

    He/she was either drunk hwen he was writiung this or he does not really belueve the tennets of Christianity.

    No wonder they practice so much deviant behavior and bring dusrepute to the religion. </div></div>

    so you mean to say that any sin that goes unrepented by a Christian and they die, they will not be let into heaven.... good reason to be a believer when none of us have the ability to be perfect and act with sin every single waking moment of out lives......

    and what about ppl who commit suicide due to a mental illness? They dont have the capacity or same internal tools to pull themselves emotionally from where they are and not harm themselves. They deserve comdemnation to I would guess by this argument.

    Lovely.

    Leave a comment:

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