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Can a person fall from grace?

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  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Suicide Revisted...

    ^
    Your last sentence is a wonderful reminder of Paul's statement on the wisdom and knowledge of God: "How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways" (Romans 11:33b). There are some issues we cannot know God's mind on, and there's no point trying to figure it out because His ways are inscrutable (deep, mysterious).

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    Re: Suicide Revisted...

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To anyone, not just Dr.J
    I guess the bigger question is, seeing that he committed suicide, would you say he forfeited receiving grace because he killed himself?
    </div></div>
    Do you remember author Lewis Smedes? Yeah, the same one who wrote "Love & Commitment - Learning to live the Love We Promise". I came across a thought provoking comment he supposedly made on the issue of suicide:

    <span style="color: #000099">"All of us commit sins we're too [lost] to recognize as sins. We all die with sins not named and repented of. I believe Jesus died not only for the sins of us all but for all of our sins, including the forgotten ones, including suicide."</span>

    Any thoughts?
    </div></div>

    Yeah.. I remember Lewis and Smede.. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] I can agree with him. Because as nylah had pointed out earlier, what about the folks suffering from mental health issues? They were the ones I thought of when I asked the question. Can we stand in a position to state that there will be no redemption or grace for them too? I cannot come to terms with that standpoint. Grace is one gift that we need boy, and we will never understand the full measure based on our limited human reasoning capabiities. In your Lewis quote above, we are reminded of the fraility of our humaness and the magnitude of who God is....makes one humble if you think about it..

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Suicide Revisted...

    sound true

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Suicide Revisted...

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To anyone, not just Dr.J
    I guess the bigger question is, seeing that he committed suicide, would you say he forfeited receiving grace because he killed himself?
    </div></div>
    Do you remember author Lewis Smedes? Yeah, the same one who wrote "Love & Commitment - Learning to live the Love We Promise". I came across a thought provoking comment he supposedly made on the issue of suicide:

    <span style="color: #000099">"All of us commit sins we're too [lost] to recognize as sins. We all die with sins not named and repented of. I believe Jesus died not only for the sins of us all but for all of our sins, including the forgotten ones, including suicide."</span>

    Any thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • Compry
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your post did not seem sarcastic to me MG. I think you are genuinely asking a question...Noh retreat to noh sidelines yahh .... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] Also, it noh seem like Dr. J recognise yu as HemGee.. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

    Mek mi add mi 12.50 cents [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]

    Grace is what they say is 'unmerited favor', favor you do not deserve. IMO God's grace extends to anyone and everyone. I think the very fact that people we classify as 'good' or 'bad' 'believer' or 'non-believer' woke up this morning is a testament to that favor we do not deserve being bestowed upon everybody.
    In the christian faith, we thank him daily for his unmerited favor, because we realise so many things could cross our path during the day. And even if things go awry during the day, we ask for his unmerited favor and strength to guide us through, cause we recognise our limitations in dealing with this situation, so we request his favor on us to give us wisdom, strenght or whatever to help us through. We know we have received it when we are not overcome by daily challenges, be it family, work, the traffic (LOL)and we are still in our right minds and able to continue our lives inspite of the various obstacles. Some more challenging than others.

    A deeper understanding of that grace is experienced when we believe what happened on the Cross. Grace was extended to the depths of humanity where we don ot desire to know Him. However, when one accepts this greater aspect of grace (by faith), then we walk in it daily, humbly, because we know we don't deserve to even wake up the next morning. If a believer walks in constant awareness of God's grace, there will be no room for judgemental or critical thoughts towards anyone, cause we know that that thing unforgivable action of the the next person towards us, we have the capability of doing the same, and even worse.

    So, the Cross is the greater impact of grace, forgiveness and mercy, but not understood or accepted by everyone. Is that gift still being offered to everyone? yes it is. It does not matter. He still offers the gift of grace. IMO, when he says i will have mercy on who he will have mercy, the answer to that question is everyone,cause in christian doctrine, grace is God's nature. He cannot NOT give grace. If we were God, and if we were honest, we would not offer grace to everyone ( I know I would be hesitant-at first [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]), some people would not receive it because 'dem too wicked and bad' and 'look what dem do to mi'..but God is not like us, and will spare even the very wicked so that that person can have the opportunity to accept the deeper understanding of grace. Yes, we might change our minds later and grudgingly give them the gift, but with God, he does not hesitate to give you grace or unmerited favor, no matter what...


    And yes, all of this is indeed a leap of faith... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]


    mi probably chat more dan mi should but mi thoughts were rambling.. </div></div>

    Gwan tru DC. I'm writing a piece on holiness. I shall be contacting you.

    MG, what DC said and the bottom-line scripture that I just love is, John 3:16 & 17, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    Hem Gee:

    “yes, I’m a little confused by the notion of grace, too, Doc.”

    Because, we are all sinners in the sight of God. Whatsoever he does for us is because of his grace. Because of his mercy.

    Lament. 3:22 (KJV) It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
    Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV) But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.


    LOOK AT THE LONG LIST OF PEOPLE WHO FOUND GRACE.

    Genesis 6:8 (KJV)
    But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

    Genesis 19:19 (KJV)
    Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

    Genesis 33:10 (KJV)
    And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

    Genesis 39:4 (KJV)
    And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

    Genesis 47:29 (KJV)
    And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:

    Genesis 50:4 (KJV)
    And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying,

    Exodus 33:12-13 (KJV)
    And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight. [13] Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

    Exodus 33:16-17 (KJV)
    For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth. [17] And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

    Exodus 34:9 (KJV)
    And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

    Numbers 32:5 (KJV)
    Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.

    Judges 6:17 (KJV)
    And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.

    Ruth 2:10 (KJV)
    Then she fell on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, and said unto him, Why have I found grace in thine eyes, that thou shouldest take knowledge of me, seeing I am a stranger?

    1 Samuel 20:3 (KJV)
    And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death.

    1 Samuel 27:5 (KJV)
    And David said unto Achish, If I have now found grace in thine eyes, let them give me a place in some town in the country, that I may dwell there: for why should thy servant dwell in the royal city with thee?

    2 Samuel 14:22 (KJV)
    And Joab fell to the ground on his face, and bowed himself, and thanked the king: and Joab said, Today thy servant knoweth that I have found grace in thy sight, my lord, O king, in that the king hath fulfilled the request of his servant.

    Jeremiah 31:2 (KJV)
    Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    HemGee.

    “Dr. James, I am every disappointed you would think my question was sarcasm. It was not. and both your answer and CEW's have not cleared up my confusion about this matter of grace being something you are given whether you seek it or not. if I’m a Christian and I ask God to give me grace, how in fact will I know when I’ve received it, since I cannot predict when he will grant it or even IF he will grant it?”

    WHEN GOD GIVES YOU SOMETHING HE ALSO GIVES THE ASSURANCES.

    When God gave something to somebody, he also gives the person the assurances. If you do not know that you get it then you did not get it. If you are in and do not know if you are in, then you are not in.

    WE KNOW. WE KNOW. WE KNOW. WE KNOW.

    Romans 8:16 (NKJV)The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
    Romans 7:14 (KJV)
    For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Romans 8:22 (KJV)
    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    Romans 8:26 (KJV)
    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    1 Cor. 13:9 (KJV)
    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    2 Cor. 5:1 (KJV)
    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    Hebrews 10:30 (KJV)
    For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HemGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    CEW, i understand the macro of the grace bestowed through the sacrifice of Jesus. however, it seemed to me this discussion was talking about grace as a favour delivered to individuals based on ??? their relationship with God? but that sometimes it is the unlikeliest people who are the beneficiaries of God's grace....???

    it all sounds very amorphous and open to interpretation. maybe it's one of those things or sayings that Christians use to exclude non-Christians...? because, as a believer, the amorphousness and openness of this concept fits into the whole paradigm of accepting things on faith and not necessarily on logic or "hard proof". </div></div>
    The discussion has had a few rabbit trails and so I can appreciate the lack of clarity on some issues. I think S_R may have addressed some of your concerns, but if questions still linger, please feel free to ask them.

    As an aside, "hard proof" is a very difficult concept to apply when it comes to religious matters. In some respects, it is not unlike a relationship where we accept "in faith" the love and committment offered to us by another. Sure there are some things that they do to demonstrate that love, but even so, we exercise much faith in their fidelity as well as their word. Because spiritual matters belong in the spiritual realm, it is impossible for us to tangibly see all the demonstrations of God's grace, even in our day to day lives. As S_R pointed out, the very act of waking up in the mornings is viewed by the believer as demonstrations of God grace, as is the peace that stands guard over our hearts and minds in the face of diverse challenges, just to name a few.

    And no, grace is not a Christian exclusive. It is extended to everyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • DC
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    Your post did not seem sarcastic to me MG. I think you are genuinely asking a question...Noh retreat to noh sidelines yahh .... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] Also, it noh seem like Dr. J recognise yu as HemGee.. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

    Mek mi add mi 12.50 cents [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]

    Grace is what they say is 'unmerited favor', favor you do not deserve. IMO God's grace extends to anyone and everyone. I think the very fact that people we classify as 'good' or 'bad' 'believer' or 'non-believer' woke up this morning is a testament to that favor we do not deserve being bestowed upon everybody.
    In the christian faith, we thank him daily for his unmerited favor, because we realise so many things could cross our path during the day. And even if things go awry during the day, we ask for his unmerited favor and strength to guide us through, cause we recognise our limitations in dealing with this situation, so we request his favor on us to give us wisdom, strenght or whatever to help us through. We know we have received it when we are not overcome by daily challenges, be it family, work, the traffic (LOL)and we are still in our right minds and able to continue our lives inspite of the various obstacles. Some more challenging than others.

    A deeper understanding of that grace is experienced when we believe what happened on the Cross. Grace was extended to the depths of humanity where we don ot desire to know Him. However, when one accepts this greater aspect of grace (by faith), then we walk in it daily, humbly, because we know we don't deserve to even wake up the next morning. If a believer walks in constant awareness of God's grace, there will be no room for judgemental or critical thoughts towards anyone, cause we know that that thing unforgivable action of the the next person towards us, we have the capability of doing the same, and even worse.

    So, the Cross is the greater impact of grace, forgiveness and mercy, but not understood or accepted by everyone. Is that gift still being offered to everyone? yes it is. It does not matter. He still offers the gift of grace. IMO, when he says i will have mercy on who he will have mercy, the answer to that question is everyone,cause in christian doctrine, grace is God's nature. He cannot NOT give grace. If we were God, and if we were honest, we would not offer grace to everyone ( I know I would be hesitant-at first [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]), some people would not receive it because 'dem too wicked and bad' and 'look what dem do to mi'..but God is not like us, and will spare even the very wicked so that that person can have the opportunity to accept the deeper understanding of grace. Yes, we might change our minds later and grudgingly give them the gift, but with God, he does not hesitate to give you grace or unmerited favor, no matter what...


    And yes, all of this is indeed a leap of faith... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img]


    mi probably chat more dan mi should but mi thoughts were rambling..

    Leave a comment:


  • mountaingal
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrJames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if grace is a gift, how do you know when you have received it?
    if you've asked a thousand times for grace, how do you know you have not received it? if you have not asked for grace, but God has given it to you, how do you know?"

    How can you get a gift and do not know? Since this is sarcasm, I have to answer it with sarcasm.

    My answer to this question is this. The same way you know when you get lucky with a woman.
    You know you have been there. ahahahahah


    </div></div>
    dr. james, i am veeery disappointed you would think my question was sarcasm. it was not. and both your answer and CEW's have not cleared up my confusion about this matter of grace being something you are given whether you seek it or not. if i'm a christian and i ask God to give me grace, how in fact will i know when i've received it, since i cannot predict when he will grant it or even IF he will grant it?

    CEW, i understand the macro of the grace bestowed through the sacrifice of Jesus. however, it seemed to me this discussion was talking about grace as a favour delivered to individuals based on ??? their relationship with God? but that sometimes it is the unlikeliest people who are the beneficiaries of God's grace....???

    it all sounds very amorphous and open to interpretation. maybe it's one of those things or sayings that Christians use to exclude non-Christians...? because, as a believer, the amorphousness and openness of this concept fits into the whole paradigm of accepting things on faith and not necessarily on logic or "hard proof".

    anyhoo - since Dr. James has decided that i as a woman can best understand this concept through imagining having gotten lucky with another woman, let me retreat to the sidelines... although a part of me wants to ask - is it really like that? you beg and beg and beg and it's only when the person feels like giving you some and you get it you recognize the feeling for what it is? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

    Leave a comment:


  • Compry
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    DrJames, you have me cracking up and I shouldn't be laughing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    CEW: I take back every crazy taught I ever think about you. Because, it cannot be said any better than what you have said.


    "God's grace is inexhaustible or He wouldn't be God. It was King Saul's disobedience/rebellion that finally caught up with him (1 Samuel 13:11-14). Unto whom much is given, much is required (Luke 12:48b), and I think it would be better to say that Saul frustrated (Gk. ath-et-eh'-o: despised, violated) God's grace and reaped the consequences. Don't forget what He said to Moses: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." He alone, in His Sovereignty, decides when to pull the trigger on grace because it cannot be exhuasted. Where sin abound, grace abound even more (Rom. 5:20)."

    Thank God you have come of age.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diplomat
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DrJames</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cew! To exhaust the grace of God is not easy. It is like drinking the ocean dry with a spoon. However, it can be done, because we have seen where people use up the grace of God. King Saul is one example. </div></div>
    God's grace is inexhaustible or He wouldn't be God. It was King Saul's disobedience/rebellion that finally caught up with him (1 Samuel 13:11-14). Unto whom much is given, much is required (Luke 12:48b), and I think it would be better to say that Saul frustrated (Gk. ath-et-eh'-o: despised, violated) God's grace and reaped the consequences. Don't forget what He said to Moses: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." He alone, in His Sovereignty, decides when to pull the trigger on grace because it cannot be exhuasted. Where sin abound, grace abound even more (Rom. 5:20).

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    if grace is a gift, how do you know when you have received it?
    if you've asked a thousand times for grace, how do you know you have not received it? if you have not asked for grace, but God has given it to you, how do you know?"

    How can you get a gift and do not know? Since this is sarcasm, I have to answer it with sarcasm.

    My answer to this question is this. The same way you know when you get lucky with a woman.
    You know you have been there. ahahahahah

    Leave a comment:


  • Rev James
    replied
    Re: Can a person fall from grace?

    Cew! To exhaust the grace of God is not easy. It is like drinking the ocean dry with a spoon. However, it can be done, because we have seen where people use up the grace of God. King Saul is one example.

    CEW: And why would you want to look up any Biblical "root word" in Latin and not in Hebrew & Greek, the original languages?

    I do not believe that Hebrews & Greek are the original language. However, you know that I am slow already. As Dr.dudd said.

    A POOR SENSE OF WHAT THE GRACE OF GOD IS Dr. Dudd.

    “If grace is a gift, what is the motivation to try to do good then? Since grace is given at the pleasure, meaning it is not what you do, but whether or not he feels to grant you grace. Of course to me it makes no sence, but I am slow as you all know.”

    It is the grace of God that will enable sinful men to do good. Saul or the apostle Paul is an example. The grace of God enables sinful men to change their life of living. A scale fall from your eyes whenever you meet God. However, there is much more that what we are saying here.

    If you and I did not get the proper teaching, we will spill the grace of God. “My people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge”

    Leave a comment:

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